header ad

City Demolishes Build

HOME FORUM RIDING FEELS GOOD FORUM TALKING ABOUT BIKES City Demolishes Build

This topic contains 46 replies, has 13 voices, and was last updated by  Dirty C4 3 years, 7 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 47 total)
ENVE

  • Author
    Posts
  • #814321

    NomadMark
    Participant

    Yeah, working with the city sucks. I have pointed that out quite a bit here over the years. I maintain the whole of the Culham trail system with a couple of guys and we pick up garbage and cut trees and have built two bridges out of pocket.
    However we have dismantled some jumps and two stunts that were downright dangerous. It is not all city land and some of it is lent for birdwatching. Yet people feel free to add trails and features as the see fit. If you screw with it too much, then there is push back. There is a give and take and a real fine balance. You can work outside the rules of the city so far. Building a permanent concrete feature is definitely going too far. Nothing good can come of building a permanent structure like that on a city owned street. You could not expand it as in the other examples. Any activity that brings people to an area will help get rid of undesirable people. You build a nice park with a playground, splash pad and so on and it is likely that people will come. All the talk about pushing out dealers or calling anyone riff raff is beside the point.

    As to Marie Curtis, I am surprised that this location would be picked for another bike park when Sunnyside is so close.
    They spent an awful lot of money on this park and just from personal experience going by there a few times a week, gets little use for the cost. It may be that I am there at the wrong times, but I have never seen it busy even on nice days on the weekends.
    I think smaller parks in community centers work well. While not nice big bowls, you can build more of them. This is more suitable for the younger demographic that do not have cars to get to them. This is probably the main reason people can’t get to Sunnyside. Marie Curtis is already a really busy park with all kinds of acceptable recreational activities. That place is pretty full all the time. Even if you built a bike park in there, people going into the back trails on the private land to party at night would still continue. The bike park would not change that. I see more people walking their dogs through there than anyone on a bike. I have run into people walking through there every time I ride through, but seldom a cyclist.
    Again, building a park along side walking paths and other amenities would deter hanging around for undesirable uses.

    It’s not at all besides the point. You posted a picture which I can only assume you posted because the group looked like riffraff, hooligans, rabble-rousers, or whatever descriptor you’d like to use, and followed it up by “would you like these people hanging around in your neighborhood”, or something similar. If I am wrong, please correct me – I WANT to believe I’m wrong.

    Parks in general, will not always dispel undesirables. Often times they create a hang-out spot. Love Park in Philly is a great example, if you know the history at all. Either way, I can tell my experience with this sort of stuff is dramatically different than yours, and I am happy to agree to disagree with you, while respecting your opinion.

    As for Sunnyside. I’ve been many times when it has been both quite busy, and also quite dead.

    I also agree that one can’t expect to just lay 150 bags of cement in a city roadway and just expect it to stay. But with enough buy in from the neighborhood, I think it could have at least been considered?

    Many forward thinking cities are now designing in such a way as to be more conducive to skateboarding – imagine that. Toronto is a long way away from being there I think; every bench, rail, and ledge I see had been skate capped or skate proofed in some fashion – so in that respect, Toronto operates completely in the opposite direction I suppose.

    Tying it back to us (mountain-bikers). Yeah, it could just as easily happen to sections of trail you ride/built/love. The Don has really eased my move to Toronto – not having it would be detrimental to my own happiness in Toronto as I see it now.

    #814326

    BlurredLines
    Participant

    crafty topic title is crafty….

    City of Toronto – Skateboard Facilities

    Just leaving that tidbit there, make what you want of it, but it brings to light just some of the infrastructure that is already exiting in the city supported category.

    #814328

    Tom Shaw
    Participant

    Good discussion on a tuff topic. I agree with all that has been posted. Since the land owner must make hard decisions about what happens on their property it is important for groups to have a public face that is asking to do things with the property managers. Is there not someone on the list of supports who has the public organizing skills to really help this group? Could this group get more newspaper publicity by publicly asking, if no bowl here then where? I think we can all agree that individuals doing what ever they want, where they want cannot be condoned. But we can all agree that proper uses like a MTB singletrack or a skate park should be championed and helped. Toronto has how many miles of unsanctioned singletrack, used by how many people, adding how much good in the middle of the 4th largest city in North America. If the greater public understood the potential of working with the MTB community and the fact that it is already happening on a large scale without organization, I think you would see greater pressure to make things even better. But it takes a democratic public group face. It is a great story for a newspaper and people would read it. We are lucky in MTBing because for the most part singletrack is basically something that is not there (leaves, sticks, branches ), instead of what is there ( cement, etc. ).Perhaps the majority of the Toronto Ravines MTB community like the underground, phuck the man feel, I understand and as a group you enjoy how much awesome singletrack ? Good Work. But all I am saying is that a group cannot have it both ways.

    #814343

    repack
    Participant

    I’m not sure I see that the relationship between skateboarding and trail riding in this city is quite that close. From what I can see, the city has comparatively much greater buy-in and support for skateparks than bike parks (13 to 2 by my tally). And as for dirt trails, for which there’s no analogy in skate-boarding, I suspect they are more work to conceive design build and most importantly maintain, compared to a very compact and focal skatepark. I pass by the Leonard Linton skatepark every time I ride, and in my impression it is lightly but by no means heavily used. Recently my local councillor arranged to transfer some funding from another park in the ward to Leonard Linton for further upgrades on the grounds that it was an underserved community (what with the three new towers just being completed). While I didn”t disagree with that, I pointed out to him that trail riders are equally if not more so underserved, and the answer I got was pretty clearly that cycling is quite a bit harder than skate-boarding, politically, because it crosses ward boundaries. So while I support the skateboarders in their effort, I do think they have some advantages that cyclists perhaps do not.

    #814347

    fietser
    Participant

    Skateboarders had/ have some huge backers:
    1. Their parents (who are voters) who wanted ‘safe’ places for them to ride. I realize that not all skateboards are ‘young’ but I certainly feel that this is part of the reality.
    2. Businesses (voters/ BIA members/ financial backers) who didn’t want them skating on their property
    3. Politicos themselves – highly visible skate parks with bronze plaques are great photo opportunities (positive press wins votes) and legacy projects
    4. Oh right, and the skateboarders themselves

    Trails, as @repack suggest, are not so visible. A ribbon of dirt through a forest is not nearly as exciting as a new piece of infrastructure that can be seen at street level by countless constituents. Ironically, because trails do cross Ward boundaries in theory they offer more exposure for a greater number of councillors – but that would mean they would have to work together and get along and we all know how difficult that seems to be on Toronto City Council;)

    On the topic of why Marie Curtis @secretagent. Well the official reason is that it was highlighted in NETS as a high priority area due to digging (jumps etc) that were happening in the area, which is deemed an ESA. Simple as that really, which is the same reason why Sunnyside was built were it was (jumps in Highpark (ESA) and the Burial ground that was allegedly there)

    Why it makes sense to build a bike park at MC – well here are a few reasons off the top of my head.
    1. Ease of access – Long Branch loop, Go Station, heaps of parking don’t have to cross a major road to get there
    2. Populated area – Unlike Sunnyside there is actually a substantially community (people) around MC
    3. Established riding community
    4. Logical progress to trails – in my opinion the whole point to a skills park is to practice your skills for use out on the trails (yes I know DJs are a little different). Those trails you mentioned to never see cyclists on well, I would bet once (if) the park is put in will see a huge increase in use
    5. The park is already super well used which means, in all likelyhood, so will the Bike Park. As a parent with a gap between kids one parent could be at the splash pad/ play ground while the other is ripping the park with the older sibling(s). Yes I get that Sunnyside has a park across the road but it is just that – across a MAJOR road.

    I could go on about the obvious economic benefits for the many private business which can be found just a stone’s throw from the park but I think the point is that MC makes sense. Does the park need to be a big/ expensive as Sunnyside, probably not. Would I rather see the City dump 500K into trails, yes but that is far less likely to happen which is why we have people who take it upon themselves to build the trails they want to ride in the areas in which they want to ride.

    Is it right, probably not, but it seems to be the solution or rather situation that we have been left with when it comes right down to it. No pretty, but it has been more of less working within our community for the last several decades.

    #814350

    repack
    Participant

    I have not been to Marie Curtis, but in my opinion the location for the sunnyside park is a bit too compromised. I went there once and it didn’t work for me, I am not sure how sunnyside got selected in the first place. I get that it’s not a trivial problem, a bike park does need more space than a skate park. But, we do have plenty of green space in some of the bigger toronto parks. As I see it, a lot of off-leash dog areas are about the same size as a bike park would need to be. On my way through the Burke brook trails, seeing the dog owners enjoying their area there, I think about sunnyside bike park and I’m not super thrilled at the comparison. The jump line behind joyride is as industrial as it gets, but it is more appealing to me as a parent.

    #814405

    death from above
    Participant

    From the look of the street view image there’s apartments on the upper left. I can see someone being pissed if they leased the apartment and had to be at work for say 6am, then some skaters built a park in the alley below their bedroom window

    #814592

    Dirty C4
    Participant

    As to Marie Curtis, I am surprised that this location would be picked for another bike park when Sunnyside is so close.
    They spent an awful lot of money on this park and just from personal experience going by there a few times a week, gets little use for the cost. It may be that I am there at the wrong times, but I have never seen it busy even on nice days on the weekends.

    Marie Curtis is the second of three locations. There is supposed to be a third one near the Rouge River but who knows.

    I think smaller parks in community centers work well. While not nice big bowls, you can build more of them. This is more suitable for the younger demographic that do not have cars to get to them. This is probably the main reason people can’t get to Sunnyside.

    https://www.thestar.com/life/2014/07/28/new_bike_park_aims_to_lure_bmx_riders_out_of_ravines.html

    “In the Humber, in the Don, in Highland Creek, in those ravines, that’s where kids are doing this,” said Scott Laver, who works in the city’s urban forestry department.

    Just after this article came out visited the park. Shortly after the city wanted feed back. As I pointed out coming from Scarborough the amount of effort to get there and parking hassle wouldn’t be worth it. Even worse if one takes the TTC. This is for someone over 19. Do they think after the effort to get there and back a parent would keep driving their kid there? Nope. What is even more ludicrous is the city thinks a parent would let their say 11 year old take the TTC there to ride it. Again nope. So they will just go back to doing it themselves.

    But hey, Toronto has lots of basketball programs because that fixes everything.

    #814598

    secret agent
    Participant

    Basketball courts are relatively cheap and can fit almost anywhere and have almost no maintenance and way more people play it. The skate park at Huron Park is right beside basketball courts and they much busier. This is the point I am making about small bike and skate parks like the one at Port Credit and Huron Park. This model works really well as they do not take a lot of land and are not too expensive. They would serve to screw around enough. You would have to go to Iceland if you want a full on park.

    Attachments:
    1. port-credit-1.jpg

    Attachments:
    #814600

    FastTimes
    Keymaster

    Baselball diamonds are fine as far as organized sports go. But no one is just “playing” at a ball diamond. Even in comparison to tennis courts and hockey rinks no one is renting them out for family or friend play time. You don’t need to sign up to play there, cause no one does. They are pretty low on the totem pole of well used facilities.

    Youth need unstructured play, which is completely absent in society today.

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #814604

    Shortcuttomoncton
    Participant

    A good pump track is what I think would be popular. Relatively compact from a space perspective, tons of fun, and not as intimidating or dangerous as the larger bike-park-style jump courses like at Sunnyside, and more flexible and fun than the single-track sort of solutions like the one at Sunnyside.

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #814607

    fietser
    Participant

    A good pump track is what I think would be popular. Relatively compact from a space perspective, tons of fun, and not as intimidating or dangerous as the larger bike-park-style jump courses like at Sunnyside, and more flexible and fun than the single-track sort of solutions like the one at Sunnyside.

    You are being far too logical in your thought process 😉 (tongue firmly planted in cheek)

    I haven’t been to Sunnyside in ages but the last time we were there we spent the entire time riding the pump track. A quick look on the Google Machine will result in numerous examples of where this has been done. A close to home version I have mentioned previously is just down the road in Hamilton (Gage Park) it was spearheaded by a couple of kids.

    Youth need unstructured play, which is completely absent in society today.

    Could not agree more with this statement. It is a sad state when we need to teach kids ‘how to play’. Camping (or just being outdoors in general) has been the vehicle for introducing our kids to do this. Funny thing though, how many people cringe when we tell them we just let our kids ‘play’ in the woods (moderately supervised). Kids are going to get dirty and get hurt – it is called living and perhaps more importantly, learning. Pedagogically speaking it is inquiry based learning at its finest!

    #814610

    Dirty C4
    Participant

    Basketball courts are relatively cheap and can fit almost anywhere and have almost no maintenance and way more people play it.

    This is the standard stereotype of Toronto that keeps getting repeated. As shown in 2005 when city councillors met with residents in Malvern and Galloway during the Malvern Crew and Galloway boys War. Residents loudly and clearly said…enough with basketball. We want more options.

    Basketball only serves the kids who are interested and want it. I have dealt with kids in neighbourhoods near Malvern and Galoway. Far more want other options. Problem is the no one wants to actually ask and listen to what is actualy needed. If they did they would find out the kids in Malvern want a bike park. So instead they are told they ca play basketball so they go build it for themselves.

    #814612

    Renegade Hardware
    Participant

    We have enough barely used basketball courts.

    #814614

    FastTimes
    Keymaster

    Just realized I reference baseball instead of basketball in my reply, but same deal. Paved green space no one is using. kids aren’t building rogue baseball or basketball courts. Kids have been digging jumps, riding/skating street on private property and building trails for as long as I can remember. These are the kids actually playing. I’m certain if Sunnyside were in a better location, and better managed it would be packed. And that the Centennial BMX track would most definitely be used, if it were barricaded shut. If the city cant manage these places they should at least let others run programs and make better use of them.

    I used to ring my buddies doorbell to go play, ride and explore. I still feel that way when I text a buddy to go for a ride. Kids need to get outside and play without a coach or parent standing over them. Learn some stuff on their own, both physically and mentally.

    Bring back play!

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 47 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

People Who Like Thisx

Loading...

People Who viewed ThisX