header ad

City Demolishes Build

HOME FORUM RIDING FEELS GOOD FORUM TALKING ABOUT BIKES City Demolishes Build

This topic contains 46 replies, has 13 voices, and was last updated by  Dirty C4 3 years, 7 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 47 total)
ENVE

  • Author
    Posts
  • #814245

    fietser
    Participant

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/skatepark-city-demolish-junction-triangle-skateboarders-1.3841126
    Sound familiar?

    Read the article and insert ‘mountain bike(r)’ every time you see ‘skateboard(er)’

    Obvious need, obvious dedication – tired of waiting on promises, so they did it themselves. Some very interesting comparisons to be drawn here between the MTB and skateboarding community.

    #814248

    Tom Shaw
    Participant

    Very sad to see peoples efforts being wasted instead of being built upon.

    #814249

    secret agent
    Participant

    While I applaud the initiative, this was a no brainer for the city. It would be open to all kinds of liability for allowing it to exist. It was also built without permits or plans. I feel the same way about stunts, berms, jumps and that sort of thing on trails. As soon as you put those in on public or private land you are opening others to liability issues. While the neighbourhood may have been behind this in this case, you can’t always assume that other users of the space, or in our case trails want those things in the trails. Even if you allow for all that and everyone is on board, then whatever is built, has to be to the standards that are acceptable by those assuming the liability for those structures. No one has a right to skateboard or mountain bike wherever they want and less put in structures for those purposes. There are places that are sanctioned for those activities. I can’t just go and hit golf balls anywhere I want. I can’t put putting cups into the ground at a park and cut all the grass into a green.
    I am playing devil’s advocate here and I support all kinds of trial building and development, but it should be done in proper clubs or organizations that are working with landowners, city etc. and have a plan, mandate, insurance etc.
    There are a ton of clubs doing things properly all over the place. The Turkey Point People, Hydrocut, HAFTA, SCMBC, are all perfect examples.

    #814250

    NomadMark
    Participant

    No brainer for the city?

    There are quite a few skateparks in the states built without permits, that have become recognized and supported after. Portland, and Detroit come to mind as places who have had skateboarders build a park in a public space against regulation, and yet have the city adopt them after the fact. Burnside is the best example I can think of. Probably one of the most famous skate parks in the US now.

    But, not in Toronto. Backwards thinking people abound.

    #814251

    secret agent
    Participant

    Burnside is a completely different situation. It was build essentially under a bridge in an undesirable area. That makes a huge difference. This is at the end of a dead end street. Maybe you would think different if you had a crowd like this at the end of your street. Picture is from the Burnside Blog.

    Attachments:
    1. image133.jpg

    Attachments:
    #814253

    NomadMark
    Participant

    Perhaps from the community/location perspective, it might be different, yes. Though I have not visited the Junction DIY park, so I can’t really say. Do I have an issue with a group of skateboarders outside my own property…probably not.

    If you look at the DIY park spaces in Detroit, it’s similar to Toronto. Residents close by, and who actually helped in building at least one park, some of which providing boarders with water, power, meals.

    The point is, DIY works when a city facilitates it. In a Burnside scenario, I imagine Toronto would pull the same regulation card. But who knows.

    #814254

    NomadMark
    Participant

    It’s also worth noting the only commentary from residents and business in the area, at least in the article posted, was very positive. Doesn’t seem like those interviewed minded at all. If you look, you’ll see the spot described very favorably.

    I’d love for you to describe those people, in the picture you posted for me. How do they make YOU feel?
    Or better yet, why don’t you let me know your thoughts on skateboarders in general, as I get the sense you don’t like them?

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #814255

    NomadMark
    Participant

    Sorry for the broken posts.

    I would say this area WAS undesirable also, after a little research. Even the near by residents have said so (mostly business). A pedestrian walk way was planned for this space, and could have gone over this space easily. There was even a save the park petition with 900 signatures!

    check out the spot on google street view:

    https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Paton+Rd,+Toronto,+ON/@43.660217,-79.445762,3a,75y,250.12h,98.98t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1spk78MBqs9BF2n3S_8jYvVw!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3Dpk78MBqs9BF2n3S_8jYvVw%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D259.35992%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x882b3440d7950269:0xd7220a3e01248219!8m2!3d43.6603367!4d-79.4450482

    And check out a little more about the park and the folks that supported it. People near by donated materials, and some have said it made the area feel more “safe”, which is generally what you will find said in other similar situations. In general, skateboarders are pretty great people – absolutely no different than mountain bikers.

    https://nowtoronto.com/news/the-demolition-of-a-diy-skatepark-in-toronto-has-sparked-a-/

    #814256

    secret agent
    Participant

    I have no problem with anyone trying to follow their sport. It was difficult enough trying to find spots to do Trials. Had to go to schools and parks and industrial areas. In the city you had to poach just about any place and get kicked out quite a bit. I understand that. The point is that if you build a pretty permanent structure without permits and without any planning, you should not be surprised when it gets torn down. I had a look at that spot, that’s why I posted the picture of the people hanging out as they are. A place like this can become a hangout, followed by graffiti and garbage as outsiders get wind of it. I have nothing against the people or the sport. It is more about a sense of entitlement about being able to do whatever you want where ever you want. The google maps view shows a truck pulling into a business. Allowing the park would be condoning the boarding in a potentially dangerous area. There may also be zoning issues. At any rate there would be liability issues. If the city allows it there and there is tagging and graffiti on the buildings, does it now have to pay to clean it up? It’s always this sort of thing that ends up causing issues.

    #814288

    Renegade Hardware
    Participant

    While I applaud the initiative, this was a no brainer for the city. It would be open to all kinds of liability for allowing it to exist. It was also built without permits or plans. I feel the same way about stunts, berms, jumps and that sort of thing on trails. As soon as you put those in on public or private land you are opening others to liability issues. While the neighbourhood may have been behind this in this case, you can’t always assume that other users of the space, or in our case trails want those things in the trails. Even if you allow for all that and everyone is on board, then whatever is built, has to be to the standards that are acceptable by those assuming the liability for those structures. No one has a right to skateboard or mountain bike wherever they want and less put in structures for those purposes. There are places that are sanctioned for those activities. I can’t just go and hit golf balls anywhere I want. I can’t put putting cups into the ground at a park and cut all the grass into a green.
    I am playing devil’s advocate here and I support all kinds of trial building and development, but it should be done in proper clubs or organizations that are working with landowners, city etc. and have a plan, mandate, insurance etc.
    There are a ton of clubs doing things properly all over the place. The Turkey Point People, Hydrocut, HAFTA, SCMBC, are all perfect examples.

    if we all followed this, we wouldn’t have any trails. If skateboarders followed this in the 80s, skate parks wouldn’t exist. There’s simply no reason to build them. But, when the government is shown the need, by citizens taking action and doing it themselves, it forces their hand to act. We have the ‘sanctioned’ don trails solely because of the efforts of ‘renegade’ builders in the past few decades, and the users on the trails. So I don’t think it’s entirely correct to say that it’s always organizations doing the groundwork or that it always needs to be through proper channels. See Marcs efforts in etobicoke creeks for example, or the rest of the Don, of which none are legally sanctioned trails, yet we ride them all the time. If we waited for the city to build them, we would still be waiting for the ridge. Sometimes you need to push to get anything in return, and where cities are concerned, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. I guess a combination of the two is what gets us results, first the ‘renegades’ build the trails, then use picks up and the city takes note and realizes they can’t just block them, which is where organizations have a large roll: in making our trails legal and getting the groundwork to build more. Thats at least how I see this play out, since it’s how it played out in the past.

    If the residents didn’t build this park, there would be no public coverage, no optics regarding the needs of the community. Now, the city sees the need, sees the usage, and sees the public outcry, because it’s taken away. So while I totally see why they removed it (legalities), this will also provide the foundation to building a legal one (which they should have worked on the existing, but that’s a thought). IIRC sunnyside only exists because the city tore down the high park jumps and we flipped on them, pointing out the inaccuracies of the gravesite claim (proven bogus by UofT GPR studies done before). Once they take away, it makes them look bad and to keep their seat the councler is usually easily swayed at this point (for fear of losing the next vote) to help residents get what they want. I agree that the area is prob not ideal, they probably didn’t follow code, etc. But I think this effort will force the cities hand to providing the area with an alternative.

    FWIW the junction was my hood for 6 years. It needs this sort of thing big-time. Wallace Emerson isn’t far, but isn’t ideal either. The area has a ton of growth, and zero public amenities that reflect the needs of the young population that lives there.

    #814289

    fietser
    Participant

    Hey guys some great conversation here, thanks for engaging.

    Anyone ever heard a place call the Post Office Jumps? Thought so. If memory serves me correct there was this groups of kids who found this abandoned lot and then built some jumps on it – got to be a pretty big deal. Eventually some people took notice, including the guy who owned it, and leased it to the Parks Dept. to allow the ‘kids’ to continue using and developing the jumps. For the more in depth version you can read it here, but I imagine most already know the story: http://adventuresportsjournal.com/an-inspired-farewell-to-the-iconic-post-office-jumps/

    Obviously, I am well aware of the liability issues etc. etc. etc… that surround this kind of thing but seriously it is getting so frustrating reading about this rhetoric from councillors and their ilk ‘recognizing the need for skateparks/ trails/ bike parks/ insert your passion here’ having HUGE management strategies drawn up and then nothing done about it. No wonder people just go ahead and DIY it. Heck, look at our own trail systems here in Toronto.

    The system here in Toronto is clearly broken and sadly, enough people have tried to ‘fix’ it through legitimate channels only to hit roadblock after roadblock. In my opinion the City has created this DIY problem themselves.

    #814291

    fietser
    Participant

    I’d love for you to describe those people, in the picture you posted for me. How do they make YOU feel?
    Or better yet, why don’t you let me know your thoughts on skateboarders in general, as I get the sense you don’t like them?

    Thanks for point this out @nomadmark because I think that it is important to speak truths. I think we all need to be careful where we are pointing fingers because I am fairly sure there are very similar looking pictures floating around of our community enjoying ourselves in public places doing much the same thing.

    #814299

    NomadMark
    Participant

    Perhaps I got secret agents post wrong, and I by no means want to seem like I’m in attack mode, but I assumed the point of the post and the picture was to make skateboarders look like riff-raff. At least that’s what I gleaned from it.

    In my own experience, when groups take over public spaces like this (i.e. undesirable spaces) a lot of times you’ll see it pushes out dealers, addicts and other undesirable folk, and replaces them with people who just want to skate – that’s a very positive thing where I come from. Skateboarders and bikers, we are exactly the same when it comes to what motivates us – two wheels or four, we just want to roll.

    From the outside, skateboarders AND bikers look like trouble to some people (fiester is right on the money), who refuse to veer away from their own sad little self revolving universe. It would be nice not to perpetuate this sort of misconception. It’s this sort of mindset that end up driving people to booby-trap trails. You know, to clear out the riff-raff you don’t want hanging around “your trails” and “your neighborhood”?

    #814304

    fietser
    Participant

    In my own experience, when groups take over public spaces like this (i.e. undesirable spaces) a lot of times you’ll see it pushes out dealers, addicts and other undesirable folk, and replaces them with people who just want to skate – that’s a very positive thing where I come from.

    @nomadmark, I can’t agree more.

    This is a rather current letter sent out from my councilor, Mark Grimes:
    http://www.markgrimes.ca/news/2016/10/28/letter-regarding-illegal-activity-in-marie-curtis-park

    If the name of the park rings a bell it is because it is the proposed location of the Marie Curtis Bike Park. I took the time to point out to the councillor and the police that perhaps actually building the Bike Park would be a good step towards ‘cleaning up’ the area as it would draw more people to the location interested in using it for more, shall we say, acceptable recreational purposes. Plus, it would benefit the many local businesses that can be found a stones throw from there – including a bike shop. But hey, what do I know.

    #814313

    secret agent
    Participant

    Yeah, working with the city sucks. I have pointed that out quite a bit here over the years. I maintain the whole of the Culham trail system with a couple of guys and we pick up garbage and cut trees and have built two bridges out of pocket.
    However we have dismantled some jumps and two stunts that were downright dangerous. It is not all city land and some of it is lent for birdwatching. Yet people feel free to add trails and features as the see fit. If you screw with it too much, then there is push back. There is a give and take and a real fine balance. You can work outside the rules of the city so far. Building a permanent concrete feature is definitely going too far. Nothing good can come of building a permanent structure like that on a city owned street. You could not expand it as in the other examples. Any activity that brings people to an area will help get rid of undesirable people. You build a nice park with a playground, splash pad and so on and it is likely that people will come. All the talk about pushing out dealers or calling anyone riff raff is beside the point.

    As to Marie Curtis, I am surprised that this location would be picked for another bike park when Sunnyside is so close.
    They spent an awful lot of money on this park and just from personal experience going by there a few times a week, gets little use for the cost. It may be that I am there at the wrong times, but I have never seen it busy even on nice days on the weekends.
    I think smaller parks in community centers work well. While not nice big bowls, you can build more of them. This is more suitable for the younger demographic that do not have cars to get to them. This is probably the main reason people can’t get to Sunnyside. Marie Curtis is already a really busy park with all kinds of acceptable recreational activities. That place is pretty full all the time. Even if you built a bike park in there, people going into the back trails on the private land to party at night would still continue. The bike park would not change that. I see more people walking their dogs through there than anyone on a bike. I have run into people walking through there every time I ride through, but seldom a cyclist.
    Again, building a park along side walking paths and other amenities would deter hanging around for undesirable uses.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 47 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

People Who Like Thisx

Loading...

People Who viewed ThisX